Podcast Ep. 22 – ContentOps and sustainability: Good for omnichannel and the planet w/ Rahel Anne Bailie

In this episode, we hear from Rahel Anne Bailie, Executive Consultant at ICP.

Noz and Rahel delve into the critical role of digital professionals in the quest for carbon neutrality.

Greenwashing is out. Net zero is in. Brands are being called upon to show their carbon footprint reduction and report their progress to investors, clients, and the public. With technology usage generating a heavier carbon footprint than the airline industry, brands can no longer claim that “going digital” is helping to save the planet.

As professionals in the digital space, the time has come to contribute to the organisational strategies that include sustainability for content assets. From how we create, produce, and deliver content and how we store and search that content, to how we design the user experiences, can make a contribution to those initiatives.  Presenter Rahel Bailie runs through a baker’s dozen ways to look at in the quest to become carbon neutral – for the good of the company as well as the good of the planet.

What you will learn:

• How to find carbon reduction areas in the content lifecycle
• Easy ways to gain efficiencies while reducing the carbon footprint
• Ideas for getting closer to net zero while improving the user experience.

Rahel Ann Bailie is an Executive Consultant at ICP and the results-driven content strategist behind Content, Seriously. She is involved with ICP‘s Content for Life strategy, which builds sustainability into the lifecycle of multiple types of content and the user experience.

Rahel has a strong track record of developing successful digital content projects, tackling the complexities of managing content for clients globally. Her strength is diagnostics: calculating how to use content to deliver compelling experiences and using content structure and standards for both operation efficiencies and as a way to increase ROI of product lifecycle content.

She is a recognised thought leader, having authored and contributed to several industry books, magazines, and academic journals. She presents at events and on podcasts and webinars worldwide. She also hosts the Let’s Talk ContentOps webinar series and teaches in the first ever Content Strategy Master’s Program at FH-Joanneum in Austria.

Full session transcript

THIS IS AN AUTOMATED TRANSCRIPT

Noz Urbina  

Hello, everybody. Welcome to this episode of the omnichannel podcast. I am your host Noz Urbina, founder of Urbina Consulting and omnichannel X. I am here with my co author, Rahel and Bailey, and we are going to talk to you all about content operations.

Rahel Bailie  

Hi, Noz Good to see you again.

Noz Urbina  

You too. I am so happy to do this with you. It’s It’s been too long. I can’t believe we’re, you know, 20 episodes in and we haven’t had you on yet. So I’m delighted we’re finally making this happen. So this is going to what I’d like to do in this session is open up the the audience to a topic that we haven’t talked about a ton on the podcast before but it’s very, very, very relevant to omnichannel which is content operations which is becoming quite a specialty of yours.

Rahel Bailie  

It is what I realized, as a content strategist. If I had to talk about the type of content strategy I do, it’s to enable content operations because if you can’t do something reliably, algorithmically, scalable, etc, etc, then you can’t scale you can’t automate. You can’t. You can’t get all that goodness you want out of the the end of the pipeline unless you do it upfront and I liken it to how everybody you know, CMS is kind of like the last mile right? This is like the food delivery motorcycles that you see scooting around the city and everyone’s like busy improving, you know, better motorcycles and quieter motorcycles and better apps and whatever, but nobody’s fixing the kitchen. So without fixing the kitchen. You’re not gonna get your food faster. If there’s like a guy with a knife in the back. You’ve got to have you’ve got to have that production line. So that’s that’s always been what I’ve been about and continue to be about and I think all my years of experience have kind of brought that into into focus for me.

Noz Urbina  

Yes, well, I think we share something that that we were content strategists who primarily never write, like it was a lot of people associate content strategy with with, you know, the creation of

Rahel Bailie  

Yeah, but I think they kind of carved themselves out more as the content designers I think content design is now more what they associate with because they actually create the content whereas the content strategist is more I guess, strategy is just to plan so what are you planning for? And then if you’re actually doing the writing, you’re doing the operationalizing of it, right? So if you’re a start, if you’re a content designer who is writing after you make the plan for it, then you are doing the content design that came out of that content strategy, or you’re doing the, you know, the operational stuff, then that’s because you had content strategy that enabled you to do that. Yeah, well, I

Noz Urbina  

I wish it was so consistent and clear as you as you make it sound.

Rahel Bailie  

Oh, it’s not at all there. How many times I’ve seen a job interview or they want to come strategist, and then they talk about writing social media, and I’m always tempted to write to them and say that it just or do you want a content creator? Because those are two different things.

Noz Urbina  

I was I was at the concept Conference, which is, you know, the content strategy conference last month, and you know, I constantly was meeting people and you’d meet people and go, Hey, what do you do? You know, I’m a content strategist and then I would go, so what do you do? Like I just because I will go into the strategies, your content strategies where the content strategy conference, I still don’t know what you mean, when you say that.

Rahel Bailie  

Well, you know, if you I often liken this to kind of medicine, right. So the doctor who diagnosis things, and that’s what a content strategist does is they diagnose and they come up with a prescription of some sort of, you know, either you’re going to take this medication or you’re going to do these exercises or whatever it is, but think about how many kinds of doctors there are. You know, are you a veterinarian? Are you a psychiatrist? Are you heart hurt, you know, and I’ve got an interest in depends on what you’re, you know what your specialty is. So, I think in a sense, we’re a little bit like that there are many kinds of people within this umbrella that we call a content strategy. And actually, when I’m teaching, and, you know, I supervise people who are doing their master’s thesis. And the first thing I say to them is, remember, go back to the first class we had where I talked about the umbrella strategy, and that you have to look at all of your content and then you pick which you don’t want to boil the ocean. So you’re gonna pick one little slice and you’re gonna say, this is what I’m dealing with. So, yes, you can do a social media content strategy for social media, you can do a content strategy for inbound marketing, doesn’t matter. But first, I want to know that you’ve considered the whole thing and made some sort of analysis that says, This is why this is important to work on.

Noz Urbina  

Absolutely. So I’ve yeah, I’ve realized that we’ve been jumped as as we are want. We’ve jumped straight into conversation. I know you so well, that I think I should probably give the audience a little bit more about your, your background. So when we co wrote a book together, so some people might know that a content strategy connecting the dots between the business brand and benefits,

Rahel Bailie  

which is useful as a textbook in a lot of organizations and a lot of educational organizations.

Noz Urbina  

Yeah, absolutely. And that you can learn more about that on the content strategy book.com or content strategy dash the book.com. Either those work. Yeah, so what have you been up to lately? Rahel?

Rahel Bailie  

What have I been up to lately? Well, oh, so many things. I’ve been working with a firm called ICP who do content ops, but in a very different way than then we would usually talk about content ops and I do my own consulting, based on the work that I that I’ve always done and with text based operational models and I, you know, I’m writing and there’s I’ve contributed heavily to a book on content operations that’s coming out imminently. It’s with the publisher, now they’re just doing like the final stages of production, and it’s going to be released for free online. And if you want a paperback version, then you can order it from either University of Virginia check, or you could probably put it on Amazon. So that’s called Content operations from start to scale perspectives from industry experts, and the editor is Carlos ETF.

Noz Urbina  

All right, so we’ll plug that again at the end of the show so people won’t forget about it. Okay. So we’ve been talking about content ops, content operations. I think that the content ops term is very interesting. I still say content operations for most of my clients because I don’t think they’re, they’re cool and hip enough to know to be cooked up with the ops type terms. But there is very different kinds of content ops, depending on who you’re talking to. So motor content strategy, just saying. So you know, we’ve worked in many different worlds CCMS DAM, Pim CRM ERP. So how what are some differences and similarities of how content Ops is perceived and, and, and how that all works together?

Rahel Bailie  

Well, since joining ICP, I have this discussion all the time. And I had the funniest discussion with one of the the think he’s one of the VPS early on where I said you know, I come from a content operations background, and he looked at me anyway, content operations like images, and I sent no no like text. And so he thought a minute and he went, Oh, like, the metadata on images is like, wow, you come from a very different world than me so you interpret these things differently to me. So I come from a tech background where everyone knows what DevOps is because that’s how you produce your code in a very operationally efficient way. So when you say content to ops, you’re thinking about all the text that goes into the gets not hard coded, but it gets pulled into the, the code and that’s what makes your digital product and then you know, it gets published at the other end, or it’s long form content that you have long form text based content that you enhance and enrich with metadata and that gets published. Now you can also look at digital asset management. And there they’re talking about the companies that have 1000s 10s of 1000s hundreds of 1000s, sometimes millions and worked on a project like that, where they’ve gotten many, many images and they have to manage them very efficiently. And so you know that they need an operational way to do that. Usually it’s within a digital asset management system. If you’re doing it on the tech side, you might use a headless CMS. Or you might use a component content management system. So you’ve got you know those two then you’ve got, what if you have a product you know, what if you’re a kind of an Amazon style place that has many, many, many products, well, you’re probably not going to use either of those systems where you’re going to keep everything is in a PIM, a product information management system. So how do you operationalize all that content? So it goes through your PIM and your message, master data management system, so that you can feed the website in an automated way. And then you’ve got you know what, if you’re doing something with translations, and now you’ve got to do your translation management, so I would argue that translation management is a an operating model unto itself. So it’s a content operations, exercise, but it’s with how do you efficiently manage your translations? And you can have what taxonomy you can kind of go well, you know, we need to have a taxonomy and now the taxonomy is so big and so unwieldy. And in so many languages, we need to be able to operationalize, how that’s managed. So any one of those things can have an operating model and that goes back to you know, are we like, like, like in medicine, where you’ve got many kinds of disciplines, and specialties, we’ve got many specialties in in content operations, and sometimes they all come together, and then the fun begins.

Noz Urbina  

Yeah, well, how are you? I think that anybody listening to that will have been able to identify with one or more of those because you threw a lot of different areas. In together there from CCMS are content component content management, DAM, Pim, the translation management system. We didn’t mention training, right. Annoyingly Training Management System translation management system have the same acronym, TMS and so on and so on. So lots of room for overlap there. So what does happen when you bring it all together?

Rahel Bailie  

Well, this ends up being interesting exercise because you need to have the people who are expert in each area and I actually did a presentation at omni channel couple of years ago, that came from a client that I had worked with, where we had four four of those operating models that we had to bring together. And you have the these where where it kind of collides is when you have let’s say, in this case, it was a lot of rich media assets. So you had yoga videos and soundscapes to help you sleep and you had, you know, all these kinds of things. So they were either video or audio but then they had trans had captions. They had, you know, various other pieces in multiple languages. So now you’ve got a few different going on. So where do you keep Where do you keep the transcript that goes with the video, for example? Well, you could keep it in a DAM and for someone who is a digital asset management expert, it makes perfect sense to keep it in a DAM because that’s where you manage, quote, unquote, everything. And then you say, Oh, yes, but if you do that, then you’re going to have trouble with your translation management because you want to keep everything in a an authoring system. I’m going to use the word authoring system in that generic way, whether it’s a CCMS or headless or whatever, it’s somewhere in the authoring system. So you want to keep in your authoring system, your your content, so that it can be automatically pushed into the translation management workflow. Come back and round trip so as then it becomes Okay, so which one of those do we choose? And you can say, Okay, we’re going to choose to keep it in the authoring system. And what we will do is we will have a content delivery system where it matches up the video itself with the content, and then it can match it up depending on where the person is logging in from. It might give it to them in Portuguese, it might give it to them in English, it might give it to them in in Arabic, right? It doesn’t really matter because it’s it’s going to be readily available. And able to be kind of aggregated together. So that’s

Noz Urbina  

kind of I want to just come in there. So you said something quite significant there, which is you’re referring to an example where we specifically get away from the one system to rule them all. Yeah, this this idea, I think still comes up where there’s people going, What do you mean? We mean, we need multiple management systems. You know, do we use a DAM or do we use a CCMS? Or do we use a headless like where, what is the management system? Where we do everything? And

Rahel Bailie  

anyone use Excel spreadsheets to create reports? Of course. Well, I know I should say techspace reports.

Noz Urbina  

techspace reports.

Rahel Bailie  

So I’ve seen developers because they use Excel for everything they’ve laid out and you know, so instead of saying, Oh, I’m going to take and use the, you know, there’s a symbol like a number of air, number of lines of text and then it will be an arrow that points in and use that to indent. Now they kind of go like we’ll add a column in here and that will create the indent and we’re going to, and it’s like you’re using Excel for something it was never intended for. So they’re actually

Noz Urbina  

authoring an Excel you mean Yes. Right. Yes, yes. Yes. Yes.

Rahel Bailie  

Do you do you have the you know, the search and replace it? Well, yes, you do. But if you did it in Word, there are things that weren’t as good at and you wouldn’t want to start trying to do formulas in word you would want to do them except in Excel, but you wouldn’t want to use Excel for some of the things I’ve seen it used for. So just just the way you wouldn’t do that, even within the Microsoft suite of products that you get pushed at you, like where do you draw something? Well, you probably use PowerPoint. There are lots of people who use PowerPoint for that because you wouldn’t use Excel to draw a picture. Although I’ve seen people excel, but it wouldn’t normally you wouldn’t do that. So you know, kind of what’s what because you played with them and and you know, oh, I need to do this. So I’m going to make the data in Excel and then I’m going to suck it into PowerPoint and now it will give me a visual representation. of it. Cool. That’s the way it should be. And so even if it’s a bigger scale, you still have those things where a digital asset management is a system is really great at like encoding, decoding, compressing cetera, et cetera. CCMS not so much license management, really great at transfusions and inclusion by reference and you need to change the product name, the company name, the whatever, you know, the product managers can change these, like they change their underwear. So you you can do that really easily using content references and so on and in in a CCMS not so much in a digital asset management system.

Noz Urbina  

I’ve had clients who literally said I asked them, you know, are you managing your source materials? Or are you just managing the final outputs in the PDF, the video, the brochure, the whatever? Are you managing the asset or are you actually managing source? And they said, Sure, well, yeah, absolutely. We manage the source. We zip it all up and we and we put it in as a as an associated file with the output

Rahel Bailie  

and just managing it. No, like a garbage dump. Version, right? Yeah. Everything into this, this bag and handed to you as you walk out the door.

Noz Urbina  

Yes, every asset we have has a junk drawer, where we throw it all the stuff. Exactly. Right. So yeah, so we’ve made the case here that you need to connect the silos, not not choose the silo, not destroy the silos, but integrate, integrate the silos.

Rahel Bailie  

Somebody use the term ventilate. That’s exactly what it is, is you ventilate them So Dana can pit and inflammation can pass back and seamlessly. Yes, yeah.

Noz Urbina  

Michael Priestley said that plumbing, you know, you’re gonna put pipes between them. Exactly. Okay, so yeah, so that’s an interesting story in your example, where we were actually seeing this in practice that you cannot try to just hammer all year round pegs into the winter, whatever square hole of a tool you have today. So that’s kind of the discipline a little bit about the technology. I’m really interested to understand how this plays out in teams. A lot of people listening will still be going well, okay, but does that mean I have to hire a content ops person? Is there a content ops team is there a content ops function or the business? Do I have content ops teams in every group within my business, like how does this all work?

Rahel Bailie  

So let’s do this I had a long discussion with a product manager and he was he had worked at IBM many years ago, and then he’d been consultant for 20 years. And he was so excited to hear about this thing called Content ops because he said, Any project I’ve ever worked on, this was the big pain point. And I didn’t even know that this term existed and I didn’t know that this concept existed, managing things. And this is so tell me something because this is always confounded me, is when you go to the development team and you say so help us build some things that we can manage this from end to end and they’re only interested in the in the delivery part. And so what happens he said, Well, that’s not our business to help you manage your department better. You have to manage your department better. We’re managing the delivery, this is what the code does. And as long as the finished product ends up, you know, the finish strings or whatever it may be ends up in where it needs to be used so that we can pull it and incorporate it into the the application to push it out. Our job is done. So I said, Well, who would do it? He’s the head of chat. However, if you go to a head of content, they’ll tell you like we’re word people we’re editorial. We don’t have a trio calendars. We know about content design, we know about the we don’t know about the tone of voice. So who does who’s that missing link and up until now it’s mainly been two people either it’s an outside consultancy, and the right outside consultancy. And there’s a very small like in the world of consultancies, a very small niche or trench of consultancies that understand it like your consultancy mine. And a half a dozen others that I could think of. And then the other person it could be is when you get at unicorn who used to be in content, and is now in your they’ve been promoted to a different position and there’s a fellow I know and I had him on my my webinar. His name is Adrian warmen. And he used to be a tech writer at IBM back in the day so he knew all about things like DITA and so on. And single handedly manages all of the cybersecurity stuff because now he’s head of something in cybersecurity at the Ministry of Justice. You know, he can publish nine iterations of his documentation in under two minutes. And he does this little demo for me upon request from time to time showing that and it’s just, it’s a thing of beauty, but the only reason he knows about it is because he had that past experience. He could bring it with him. So those people are few and far between and then you have the people who you know, and I’ve tried to implement this in a couple of places and was completely shut down by you know, the the young tech bros who just wanted to, you know, do it in some way that benefited them, but they didn’t really care about all the pain that that the content people

Noz Urbina  

would go through. See it through their own lens.

Rahel Bailie  

Yeah, they see it through their lens and you know, you can’t really fault them for it. Well, I mean, I can fault them for it, but that’s my you know, I own that. So, you know, until you get somebody who has come from that background of high efficiency, high, high volume publishing with a lot of variables and can look at something and go, This is what we need. So this is how you know that you need a DAM. When you say, okay, like, we’re not doing the Google Drive thing anymore. We’re going to a proper DAM, or, you know, we’re not doing this this chaos with the translation management anymore. We’re going to somehow get our stuff into a translation management system, whether that’s a managed service, or we’re going to license one or whatever it is, but we’re doing that now. And so until you get somebody who actually has that deep knowledge, and has that authority and position to be able to say we need to make a change, and you have budget because if you follow that, like Spotify model, where what’s the Spotify model there? Instead of departments and depart departments and teams, you’ve got squads, and I don’t know they just renamed them. You know, it’s the same thing. But they have the budget. Content has no budget, they just get placed into the team. So whenever you go in and say, We need another content person, they go no, I need a front end developer

Noz Urbina  

are like, was that the tribes and squads thing?

Rahel Bailie  

Yes. Tribes and squads that’s it? Yes.

Noz Urbina  

Yeah. I have been on one organization that Yeah.

Rahel Bailie  

For them, but it does not work for content people trust me on this one.

Noz Urbina  

Okay. Yeah, no, I didn’t. I didn’t stay with the project for very long but I remember they weren’t they were just wrapping it up. And yeah, it was it seems like a just a different flavor of agile for the people who are familiar with that, in the sense that you’re supposed to have these multiple multidisciplinary teams working together from from the beginning. To the end of a of an effort.

Rahel Bailie  

Yes, except that it creates a a recruits high school that they’re the cool kids and the cool professions and the dorky kids and the darkened professions and content is definitely put in the dorky camp.

Noz Urbina  

Hmm, yes. Yeah. So, okay, so there’s what I’m getting is that the ball stays on the ground because there’s not, you know, clear ownership. Yes. You know, it’s not my problem is not your problem. It’s kind of nobody’s problem, but it causes real big problems for all of us. Yes. For me, this is the worst kind of thing. In in an organization. When when there’s these these the organization hemorrhages money, because they simply haven’t zoomed out, and I talk a lot about zooming out in my stuff at the end, this confusion that’s created by everyone being so focused and so happy to be so specialized and we see that as a virtue, you know, more and more more specialization, more and more more focus. But who is actually looking at these this whole operation and going is this the best way to work and then on the customer facing side, is this the best experience we can deliver or journey we can we can deliver? Well,

Rahel Bailie  

we what we don’t have is someone measuring the cost of doing that and that’s always one of my options is you can do this, this and this. And plus, here’s status quo, the cost of status quo. And if you don’t know that there’s anything better than Google Docs or Microsoft Word like you know, generic word processing. If you don’t know that there’s something better than, you know, an image library somewhere in press. That No, you’ve never experienced something that’s more sophisticated than that. Then you know, can you blame somebody I haven’t seen that. If you ask someone how to get from here to New York, from London, in the UK to New York, and they don’t know that herbs exist they’re always going to describe a boat. And when you say air travel, though, they look at you very confused, and they go well, we could get a bigger boat or as faster boat or a longer boat but they will never talk to you about an airplane because they don’t understand air travel. And so this is what happens in content is you get folks who’ve never used anything except really basic tools that were meant for casual business use. And now you’re expected to churn out production grade, quick tag, whatever, you know, do omnichannel like, you know, what goes into that you need structure content, you need metadata you need, you know, reliable processability and so how do you do that we’ve got best practices. Coming out there wasn’t for it, but if nobody knows that, they’re going to describe a vote. And so you know, that’s where we are right now. And I don’t see that. Unfortunately, I don’t see that changing very quickly because there isn’t a lot of okay, the ideal situation, let me describe it. The ideal situation would be marketing or HR or whatever compliance goes to the tech writers and says, We know that you can do all this magic stuff with this really powerful software. Can you help us? And they go, Sure. And they say, oh, you know, this is great instead of having,

Noz Urbina  

who’s going to whom, here’s, sorry, who’s going to who in this in this scenario, oh, either

Rahel Bailie  

marketing or HR or, you know, some non tech writing group. Okay. They know that tech writers can do this magic stuff. At high volume really quickly and really efficiently. And they take that and they create a position just like marketing technologists became a position because look at the marketing stack. If you look at you know that that map comes out every year you just want to tear your hair out and so you say, Okay, well, we need the same thing on the non marketing side, or we need the same thing for content at the authoring end, nevermind the delivery end at the authoring end, and then let them do their stuff. And they would gladly help because you know, it’s a special skill.

Noz Urbina  

Yeah, so I do think I do think that some spread. I think that there’s I think the drivers will be the people want the result. I think and you probably share this concern is the concern that rather than finding out that there are people and best practices and tools for this already, they will try to rebuild them poorly.

Rahel Bailie  

Well, we’ve seen that happening already. I went to an event, really smart people, and they talked about how they’re creating these things called blocks. And I looked at it and I went okay, this is a pared down version of a content reference and DITA so can do 1/10 of what the con reps can do. And they’ve never heard of the don’t want to know did it. They have this thing called blocks. And they invented it and they’re very proud of it. And now this is going to take over the world and I’m like okay, you know, go for

Noz Urbina  

it. Yeah, so I yeah, I don’t think I don’t know even I don’t even know these days how much how many of our listeners have ever even heard of DITA, but it is I’m not gonna get into it. Now what it is for those who do know, it is an area where there’s there’s a lot of thinking and work that has been done to solve a lot of these fundamental problems. Yeah. And

Rahel Bailie  

so is this standard, like any other standard, I mean, it’s more than a standard but it’s a standard. So just the way HTML is a standard or, you know, all these other things are a standard. It’s a standard and it means that you can process things with automation says that you need any training and you need software. So it’s like, okay, a friend of mine said when she bought her Porsche, they wouldn’t let her just drive it off the lot. They take you out to a, like a race truck, and they teach you how to drive it so that you won’t like flip it off of a bridge. You know, when you’re speeding up quickly, and so, you know, and you have to learn, you know, if it’s a stick shift, you have to learn to manage the gears and all that. So if if if you think about the software and the techniques that technical writers are using when they’re using a CCMS that’s like driving the Ferrari, and everyone else is used to a Ford Focus and when you say you have to take a class you have to know about this, you have to and you have to dish out the money on a Ferrari algo know. Now, the fact that you can now do 20 times the work, or I shouldn’t say 20 times the work you can get 20 times the results because instead of spending two weeks looking for things, and then doing manual searches and replaces them doing an audit to make sure that you caught them all etcetera, etcetera, etcetera. You just change a couple of variables and run a script and there you go, you know,

Noz Urbina  

I’m gonna have to release it and I have to release a glossary with this episode. So okay, so But what we’ve what we’ve established is that there are there are there are better ways reach out to your friendly neighborhood content operations person, and that there are a lot of benefits from going outside your usual pool of skills and people to find out maybe someone else has already solved the problem that you’ve that you’re looking for. You’re looking to solve. So you just want to on the on the wrap up here. I want to mention that book, he said was coming out again, this guy elucidate all this with with examples.

Rahel Bailie  

Yes, there are examples that are some lots of theory and there are the discussions of you know, how this affects all what I would call the adjacent professions. So what are you extra needs to know what a developer and so on so forth. And we assume that everybody knows how to write but what we do cover is how you have to write to operationalize your content. Cool. You’ll know this because when we teach content modeling at the university, we teach a lot of that information.

Noz Urbina  

Yeah, great.

Rahel Bailie  

So it’s the same, the same principles.

Noz Urbina  

Sounds like a good book, and so it’s free. So we want to link that from the from the from the show notes. Where else can people connect with you?

Rahel Bailie  

They can connect with me on LinkedIn, they can email me, email me, Rahel dot Bailey at ICP net.com. Or if they just want to read things that I’ve written about content operations, they can look on content seriously.co.uk called points of view so that’s, there’s information about content operations in there.

Noz Urbina  

Fantastic. Well, thank you so much for Well, I’m glad we finally got around to doing this. I really appreciate it. And thanks to all our listeners, if you’re, if you don’t know already OmnichannelX has pivoted from the annual conference. We are now running series of podcasts regularly twice a month. Webinars should be once a month. We have several things on this on the calendar already. And this year, we have announced two parallel themes. The content modeling session series which has several panels discussions that have already been announced featuring myself, Megan Casey, Jeff Eaton, Carrie Hain and crew Saunders which is a bit of a who, who, and who’s who in the world of content modeling, and we were we may have already announced are about to announce omni channel in pharma and life sciences. So check those out. There’s lots of free stuff for you to check out for the whole rest of the year. And we’ll be running events like this with themes of online series of events that like this all year, every year till the end of time. So thank you, so all so much, and thank you for helping.

Rahel Bailie  

Thank you.

Noz Urbina  

Alright, see you next time.

Rahel Bailie  

Bye. All right.